Zimbabwe Vs West Indies | 2nd Test | 12-16 Feb 2023 | Bulawayo

[CrimsonAvenger]

What we need to hope and pray for is that Raza actually has a great IPL so that he can start turning down leagues

If it’s any consolation, I suspect this will be Razas one and only IPL.

Well, one hoping for him to come good in IPL and the other hoping he doesn't - both for the benefit of Zim Cricket

I would agree more with TapsC here - a successful IPL would mean he will focus on Zim + IPL instead of Zim + PSL + WIPL + PSL + BPL + ILT20 etc. You never know, but fair assumption to make. So, I'd rather want him to succeed in IPL. But then again, he has to get into the playing XI first.

[secretzimbo]

He’s probably only got a year or two until he retires, I really don’t blame him for trying to earn some money. You need it in Zim.

He’s skipping Tests - so are loads of other 37+ year olds around the world. We hardly play any of them so he’s not missing much.

He’s also been heroic over the past twelve months so I think we can give him the freedom to do what he wants.

Burl on the other hand , in my opinion, is more of a disgrace for missing the Tests. He hasn’t done enough to choose. We should exclude him from selection for the next Tests as a result. The board were shitbrained for giving him a NOC.

[jaybro]

- Kaia’s revelation proves my point that I’ve been saying ever since I joined the forum 10 years ago (holy shit that’s gone quick) that most baysman aren’t ready for international cricket until they’ve scored 3000-4000 first class runs.

Countless international players disprove that point.

Countless? I don’t think so mate

Every knows that batsman don’t hit their best until they’re 30.

Sure you’ll get the odd youngster hit the ground running, but almost all will dip for a while and have to bounce back again.

[jaybro]

He’s probably only got a year or two until he retires, I really don’t blame him for trying to earn some money. You need it in Zim.

He’s skipping Tests - so are loads of other 37+ year olds around the world. We hardly play any of them so he’s not missing much.

He’s also been heroic over the past twelve months so I think we can give him the freedom to do what he wants.

Burl on the other hand , in my opinion, is more of a disgrace for missing the Tests. He hasn’t done enough to choose. We should exclude him from selection for the next Tests as a result. The board were shitbrained for giving him a NOC.

Burl only asked to miss the Tests, a format he hasn’t been selected for in a while nor has had much success or was likely to be in the best XI.

Sure, he would have played with the others missing out, but ultimately I have sympathy for Burl. Remember ZC screwed him over a few years ago when they called him back from the BPL only to not select him.

Plus as mentioned, Burl has had one t20 gig that has clashed with Zim fixtures, whilst Raza has chosen BPL, ILT20, PSL and of course IPL over Zim. I’m sure he’ll get picked up for CPL and also miss more Zim fixtures throughout the year.

Remember he said that it was a 50-over WC year so he’d be available for all Zim ODIs games? Yeah let’s see

He should just officially retire from Tests then no one can complain

[ZIMDOGGY]

He’s probably only got a year or two until he retires, I really don’t blame him for trying to earn some money. You need it in Zim.

He’s skipping Tests - so are loads of other 37+ year olds around the world. We hardly play any of them so he’s not missing much.

He’s also been heroic over the past twelve months so I think we can give him the freedom to do what he wants.

Burl on the other hand , in my opinion, is more of a disgrace for missing the Tests. He hasn’t done enough to choose. We should exclude him from selection for the next Tests as a result. The board were shitbrained for giving him a NOC.

Ill be surprised if Raza still lives in Zimbabwe in 5 years time.
I think if he does have a sensational IPL, he will retire from Zim after the World cup campaign, or near of it.

[andrea lanzoni]

He’s probably only got a year or two until he retires, I really don’t blame him for trying to earn some money. You need it in Zim.

He’s skipping Tests - so are loads of other 37+ year olds around the world. We hardly play any of them so he’s not missing much.

He’s also been heroic over the past twelve months so I think we can give him the freedom to do what he wants.

Burl on the other hand , in my opinion, is more of a disgrace for missing the Tests. He hasn’t done enough to choose. We should exclude him from selection for the next Tests as a result. The board were shitbrained for giving him a NOC.

Raza and all others can't be blamed or alleged to be greedy for participating in T20 Leagues. In what other industry you hope workers longing for a .... lower pay?

The problem is that ZC cannot economically compete against ANY T20 league.

So? How to make the (few) best players still playing for national squad also?

Calendar.
National board (above all in Tests) has to organize its fixtures with an eye to T20 Leagues and fill the gaps.
After ILT20 and SAT20 there are not many lucrative new T20 Leagues to be launched, so the competition is clear enough.
Secondly, as Big Bash lectures, apart from IPL no T20 league can sensibly pursuit length extension whilst hoping to remain profitable.

Finally, there is not much gap in the calendar year, but there indeed is.
Organizing calendar sensible fixtures is the (only) way to retain best players without rhetorical appeals to national "values" (especially if the national board doesn't show much interest to work to meet its fixtures with life of its best players).

[secretzimbo]

He’s probably only got a year or two until he retires, I really don’t blame him for trying to earn some money. You need it in Zim.

He’s skipping Tests - so are loads of other 37+ year olds around the world. We hardly play any of them so he’s not missing much.

He’s also been heroic over the past twelve months so I think we can give him the freedom to do what he wants.

Burl on the other hand , in my opinion, is more of a disgrace for missing the Tests. He hasn’t done enough to choose. We should exclude him from selection for the next Tests as a result. The board were shitbrained for giving him a NOC.

Ill be surprised if Raza still lives in Zimbabwe in 5 years time.
I think if he does have a sensational IPL, he will retire from Zim after the World cup campaign, or near of it.

I don’t see why he wouldn’t live here. He’s been here 20+ years and I believe his parents are still in Zim quite a lot. It’s here or Pakistan, which he hasn’t lived in for a long time.

Hopefully we will keep him in the system anyway. The problem is he is quite outspoken so I don’t know whether he would fit. Nonetheless his performances have turned him into a big time national celebrity so ZC won’t want to lose him totally

[Kriterion_BD]

I don't think anyone doubts their talent. The questions are whether they are up to it or are developing as the promise shows. Wes and Shumba have been around the team for a while now and jus thave not kicked on as they should. All well and good to hype them up, but they are falling behind where they need to be.

I guess I am the only one who doubts the talent level of the "Little 3" (Madhevere, Marumani, Shumba).

But I suppose you have to define what talent is. Do we mean talented like Shubman Gill? Then surely not. Kid is the same age as the Little 3 but has centuries in all 3 formats, and a double century in ODIs already. Of course, comparing to India is only relevant if Zimbabwe plays teams like India regularly, which they don't, or are expected to compete at the same level as India. Of course that is not applicable either.

So the question is, who are we comparing them to and who should we compare them to?

My opinion is that its most useful to compare to Zimbabwe's nearest competitors - which would of course be Ireland and Afghanistan across formats. And here the results are a bit more sobering than "they will eventually come good". For example in the recent Ireland series, Harry Tector and Stephen Doheny dominated the bowling whereas the ZIM youngsters all struggled. Similarly, Ibrahim Zadran has started off his career in blistering form, smacking 3 ODI hundreds in his first 8 games, including a 160+ score. Even when Madhevere was off to a "fast" start, he was only hitting 50s and 60s and never kicking on. The issue is that the Little 3 are already a long way behind the likes of the Tectors and Zadrans.

Someone made the comparison to BT and Williams. Williams is an exceptional outlier - he was a mediocre batter until about 2016 when he suddenly started scoring hundreds and being consistent. The case with Taylor couldn't be more different than Madhevere. Taylor played much stronger opposition in his first few years than Madhevere has so far. Taylor's average also hovered between 23-27 the entire time, and then from 2006 it started to break upwards towards 30. Madhevere started with an average in the mid to high 30s, and then as opposition started studying him, his average has steadily fallen down even reaching the teens. He now has an ODI average under 20, and 4 fifties from 25 innings. Tector and Zadran have 3 hundreds each!

In conclusion, I am quite bearish on ZIM's prospects once the Big 3 retire and its just Ballance and Kaia holding the batting together. The only hope the Little 3 have to developing their game - given A team cricket is unfeasible - is if they continue to play internationals and learn on the job. The Logan Cup and Pro50 aren't quality enough to get them up to speed for international cricket. But for that to happen, they have to at least average 20-25 so they can keep their spot in the XI without people raising a fuss at the selectors.

[andrewn9]

Imo, it's a bit harsh to say Williams was a mediocre batter before 2016. I've watched a lot of Zimbabwe cricket over the years and Williams always looked like he belonged at international level. He would often get 1 or 2 fifties in an odi series but not kick on and get hundreds. As a consequence his average didn't go up so much. Does that make him mediocre? Maybe, but I thought he was a pretty consistent guy, who could be relied on to get runs, moreso than quite a few of his teammates (e.g. Sibanda, Matsikenyeri, Chibhabha, etc). Away from stats, the big thing for me was that he looked the real deal, like he could perform at that level. I think he was a bit older than the current little 3, who don't evoke the same feelings just yet, so there is a bit of time.

[secretzimbo]

This discussion has been done to death numerous times.

The most important thing - can we stop saying 'Little 3'? Yuck!!