Zimbabwe Vs West Indies | 2nd Test | 12-16 Feb 2023 | Bulawayo

[Kriterion_BD]

A quick search of the top ODI run scorers for Bangladesh in 2022 shows the same names in the top 7. Shakib, Mahmudullah, Mushfiqur and Tamim always pitch up. Anamul Haque and Liton Das are 30. Can you show me the 22 year old batsman in your side who is scoring limited overs centuries like Tector? You making it sound like it's so easy.

Najmul Hossain Shanto scored a 163 in a Test vs Sri Lanka back in 2021, when he was 22. He then scored another hundred in Harare a couple months later. More on that below. Mehidy Hasan Miraz scored a Test hundred at age 23. Zakir Hasan just got one at 24, batting out of positions vs India. Shall I continue? Bangladesh isn't a good example, because in the last 10 years, no batter has debuted before the age of 21 - with the exception of Shanto. So obvously the guys scoring runs will almost always be older than 22.

Forgot Mahmudul Hasan Joy scored a Test hundred at 21, albiet vs a weakened SA attack.

When is Afif going to come close again? I'm sure you rate his 72 in South africa highly right? Wes scored 72 in Australia but here you are ruling him out.

To be honest, I wasn't even aware of Afif scoring 72 in SA, because I don't rate Afif at all, at the present moment. I am biased towards Test cricket, and if a guy doesn't play or doesn't score there, I don't really rate him. Which is why I tend to overlook Shanto's 15 average in ODIs, because he's scored runs in overseas Tests, I believe its just a matter of him getting a long run in ODIs before he starts to score there as well. Now that is not say I think Afif is a trash cricketer, just that he's not on my radar at the moment.

Please can you also show me how many times when BT was 22 and below he managed to score half centuries in places like Australia or Pakistan. Against full strength bowling units too. How many times more than Wes did he do that by the age of 22? BT is probably the best limited overs batsman Zimbabwe has ever produced on paper.

Player growth in cricket is not as mathematically predictable as you make it sound

I think Liton Das is 28, not 30. Regardless, I mentioned Tector, Doheny, and Zadran for a reason. They are the nearest competitor teams to Zimbabwe and the relative performance of ZIM-IRE-AFG over the next 10 years will largely depend on how Madhevere/Marumani/Shumba do compared to Tector/Doheny, Zadran/Gurbaz/Mujeeb/Rashid/Faruqi.

Bangladesh at this stage isn't a competitor nation of Zimbabwe so seniors vs juniors is totally irrelevant. But since you mentioned it, and its been on my mind, you do have a point. The under 25 guys in the Bangladesh team right now are Afif and Shanto and Zakir (Tests only). Well Zakir has just turned 25, but he did score a Test hundred vs India.

But more to your previous point, this upcoming year is going to be make or break for Shanto and Afif. Now bear in mind Shanto has a poor record in all formats, but he does have two Test centuries already. This indicates that he can potentially play and/or has talent. However, having talent isn't the only factor, or even the most important ingredient to success at this level. However, the BCB has shown a decent amount of support to him and his Player of the Series BPL performance will only extend that well into 2023. I believe Shanto will be given a long run at #3 in ODIs this year, a format where he only averages 15 with the idead that he will be the transition to lead our batting as our Big 4 retires. My personal belief is Shanto can be a game-breaker for Bangladesh, possibly in all 3 formats.

However, I want to higlight one key difference. I think a guy with 2 international hundreds CAN possibly be a world class talent in the future, vs many on this forum who say a guy with no international hundreds WILL.

[mnelson68]

I don't think anyone doubts their talent. The questions are whether they are up to it or are developing as the promise shows. Wes and Shumba have been around the team for a while now and jus thave not kicked on as they should. All well and good to hype them up, but they are falling behind where they need to be.

I guess I am the only one who doubts the talent level of the "Little 3" (Madhevere, Marumani, Shumba).



Someone made the comparison to BT and Williams. Williams is an exceptional outlier - he was a mediocre batter until about 2016 when he suddenly started scoring hundreds and being consistent. The case with Taylor couldn't be more different than Madhevere. Taylor played much stronger opposition in his first few years than Madhevere has so far. Taylor's average also hovered between 23-27 the entire time, and then from 2006 it started to break upwards towards 30. Madhevere started with an average in the mid to high 30s, and then as opposition started studying him, his average has steadily fallen down even reaching the teens. He now has an ODI average under 20, and 4 fifties from 25 innings. Tector and Zadran have 3 hundreds each!

In conclusion, I am quite bearish on ZIM's prospects once the Big 3 retire and its just Ballance and Kaia holding the batting together. The only hope the Little 3 have to developing their game - given A team cricket is unfeasible - is if they continue to play internationals and learn on the job. The Logan Cup and Pro50 aren't quality enough to get them up to speed for international cricket. But for that to happen, they have to at least average 20-25 so they can keep their spot in the XI without people raising a fuss at the selectors.

A quick search of the top ODI run scorers for Bangladesh in 2022 shows the same names in the top 7. Shakib, Mahmudullah, Mushfiqur and Tamim always pitch up. Anamul Haque and Liton Das are 30. Can you show me the 22 year old batsman in your side who is scoring limited overs centuries like Tector? You making it sound like it's so easy.

When is Afif going to come close again? I'm sure you rate his 72 in South africa highly right? Wes scored 72 in Australia but here you are ruling him out.

Please can you also show me how many times when BT was 22 and below he managed to score half centuries in places like Australia or Pakistan. Against full strength bowling units too. How many times more than Wes did he do that by the age of 22? BT is probably the best limited overs batsman Zimbabwe has ever produced on paper.

Player growth in cricket is not as mathematically predictable as you make it sound

Just on Brendan Taylor , before he turned 19 years old he had scored 5 half centuries against Sri Lanka, Australia, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Before he turned 23 he had 12 half centuries in odi cricket. Wessly has managed only 4 so there is a big difference here.

[jaybro]

I can’t speak for the entire forum, but my beliefs are that the little 3 will become the backbone of the Zimbabwe side, and most likely continue to improve as they get more experienced.

I don’t think they’ll ever be seen as ‘world class’ but to expect them to reach similar heights there I of the current Big 3 (or 4 including BT) isn’t too far fetched.

[Kriterion_BD]

I can’t speak for the entire forum, but my beliefs are that the little 3 will become the backbone of the Zimbabwe side, and most likely continue to improve as they get more experienced.

I don’t think they’ll ever be seen as ‘world class’ but to expect them to reach similar heights there I of the current Big 3 (or 4 including BT) isn’t too far fetched.

Thats interesting to be sure. The Big 4 (Taylor, Williams, Raza, Ervine) have pretty solid records. I'm ignoring T20 cricket here. Only Ervine has a significantly lower ODI average, but its still a respectable 30+ average. They have a fair few hundreds too between them. But with 4 players and two formats, thats 8 averages total, and 7 out of 8 are 35+, which is pretty decent. Also bear in mind that 35 in earlier eras is probably equal to 45 today. I think in Tests, its actually reversing now as there seems to be a bowling resurgence.

Bottom line is, I find it hard to see the Little 3 matching or eclipsing the Big 4, purely from a statistical standpoint.

Now if its actual results, it might be easier since the Big 4 didn't actually have a lot of results in the 15 plus years of their era. 1 Test win vs Pakistan and an ODI series win vs Sri Lanka, and a win vs Australia at the 2007 T20 WC is what comes to mind. Did I miss anything?

[jaybro]

I can’t speak for the entire forum, but my beliefs are that the little 3 will become the backbone of the Zimbabwe side, and most likely continue to improve as they get more experienced.

I don’t think they’ll ever be seen as ‘world class’ but to expect them to reach similar heights there I of the current Big 3 (or 4 including BT) isn’t too far fetched.

Thats interesting to be sure. The Big 4 (Taylor, Williams, Raza, Ervine) have pretty solid records. I'm ignoring T20 cricket here. Only Ervine has a significantly lower ODI average, but its still a respectable 30+ average. They have a fair few hundreds too between them. But with 4 players and two formats, thats 8 averages total, and 7 out of 8 are 35+, which is pretty decent. Also bear in mind that 35 in earlier eras is probably equal to 45 today. I think in Tests, its actually reversing now as there seems to be a bowling resurgence.

Bottom line is, I find it hard to see the Little 3 matching or eclipsing the Big 4, purely from a statistical standpoint.

Now if its actual results, it might be easier since the Big 4 didn't actually have a lot of results in the 15 plus years of their era. 1 Test win vs Pakistan and an ODI series win vs Sri Lanka, and a win vs Australia at the 2007 T20 WC is what comes to mind. Did I miss anything?

Probably need to look a little closer to what I said, and I probably need to clarify and be more clear.

I said it isn’t far fetched to think they could reach similar heights, not committing to the prediction they will eclipse what the Big 4 have done as you have stated.

Looking at scoring hundreds alone -

Ervine’s record was really good around 2015-2017 but apart from a big series in Ireland, his ODI form has dropped as has his average. He has 6 international hundreds, there’s no reason why the little 3 can’t reach that total.

Raza has just the one more international century, and 3 have come after he turned 36. Williams has 9 international hundreds, but again most have come later in his career once he had come to terms with his game and learnt how to build an innings.

BT is obviously a different breed, No Zimbo has scored more international hundreds than him, including Andy Flower. So I’d agree it’s unlikely that the little 3 could reach 17 international hundreds, obviously Wes would be the most likely.

These guys are so young, it’s very hard to know where they’ll end up, but what is clear is that they’re not ready enough or in form enough to be in the national team at the moment.

[secretzimbo]

Bangladesh at this stage isn't a competitor nation of Zimbabwe

You mean apart from beating you in our two most recent series?

[TapsC2]

A quick search of the top ODI run scorers for Bangladesh in 2022 shows the same names in the top 7. Shakib, Mahmudullah, Mushfiqur and Tamim always pitch up. Anamul Haque and Liton Das are 30. Can you show me the 22 year old batsman in your side who is scoring limited overs centuries like Tector? You making it sound like it's so easy.

Najmul Hossain Shanto scored a 163 in a Test vs Sri Lanka back in 2021, when he was 22. He then scored another hundred in Harare a couple months later. More on that below. Mehidy Hasan Miraz scored a Test hundred at age 23. Zakir Hasan just got one at 24, batting out of positions vs India. Shall I continue? Bangladesh isn't a good example, because in the last 10 years, no batter has debuted before the age of 21 - with the exception of Shanto. So obvously the guys scoring runs will almost always be older than 22.

Forgot Mahmudul Hasan Joy scored a Test hundred at 21, albiet vs a weakened SA attack.

When is Afif going to come close again? I'm sure you rate his 72 in South africa highly right? Wes scored 72 in Australia but here you are ruling him out.

To be honest, I wasn't even aware of Afif scoring 72 in SA, because I don't rate Afif at all, at the present moment. I am biased towards Test cricket, and if a guy doesn't play or doesn't score there, I don't really rate him. Which is why I tend to overlook Shanto's 15 average in ODIs, because he's scored runs in overseas Tests, I believe its just a matter of him getting a long run in ODIs before he starts to score there as well. Now that is not say I think Afif is a trash cricketer, just that he's not on my radar at the moment.

Please can you also show me how many times when BT was 22 and below he managed to score half centuries in places like Australia or Pakistan. Against full strength bowling units too. How many times more than Wes did he do that by the age of 22? BT is probably the best limited overs batsman Zimbabwe has ever produced on paper.

Player growth in cricket is not as mathematically predictable as you make it sound

I think Liton Das is 28, not 30. Regardless, I mentioned Tector, Doheny, and Zadran for a reason. They are the nearest competitor teams to Zimbabwe and the relative performance of ZIM-IRE-AFG over the next 10 years will largely depend on how Madhevere/Marumani/Shumba do compared to Tector/Doheny, Zadran/Gurbaz/Mujeeb/Rashid/Faruqi.

Bangladesh at this stage isn't a competitor nation of Zimbabwe so seniors vs juniors is totally irrelevant. But since you mentioned it, and its been on my mind, you do have a point. The under 25 guys in the Bangladesh team right now are Afif and Shanto and Zakir (Tests only). Well Zakir has just turned 25, but he did score a Test hundred vs India.

But more to your previous point, this upcoming year is going to be make or break for Shanto and Afif. Now bear in mind Shanto has a poor record in all formats, but he does have two Test centuries already. This indicates that he can potentially play and/or has talent. However, having talent isn't the only factor, or even the most important ingredient to success at this level. However, the BCB has shown a decent amount of support to him and his Player of the Series BPL performance will only extend that well into 2023. I believe Shanto will be given a long run at #3 in ODIs this year, a format where he only averages 15 with the idead that he will be the transition to lead our batting as our Big 4 retires. My personal belief is Shanto can be a game-breaker for Bangladesh, possibly in all 3 formats.

However, I want to higlight one key difference. I think a guy with 2 international hundreds CAN possibly be a world class talent in the future, vs many on this forum who say a guy with no international hundreds WILL.

You ignored the whole part where I said LIMITED OVERS none of those young guys are doing it in limited overs cricket. Why? If its that easy.

We don't play enough Test cricket for us to ever get a decent opinion. Shanto at 24 has played more tests than Ervine, Raza and Williams. Let's talk limited overs cricket. Where are your kids banging hundreds? Don't hide with test cricket

[zimbos_05]

You are actually saying what I'm saying. No way you can tell me we were playing more competitive teams when BT started. We were being bowled out for 34 then after that people were sending C teams. Kriterion said BT played more competitive teams when he started than Wesley. That isn't true.

I don't know if we are. I don't fully disagree with you or question what you are saying. I'm just saying that it is unfair to compare them. Yes, Wes and all have played in these tougher conditions and such, but it's international cricket. Can't go hiding behind all these small little things.

Probably need to look a little closer to what I said, and I probably need to clarify and be more clear.

I said it isn’t far fetched to think they could reach similar heights, not committing to the prediction they will eclipse what the Big 4 have done as you have stated.

Yeah, words make a difference. Saying they "will" be the backbone and then saying, "they could" reach similar heights are two different things.

I think we all agree that they have the talent, but are not happy with the way they have progressed and that promise, which has not fully been fulfilled, is frustrating.

[TapsC2]

To me you can't just rule out T20s because you don't like them. Unfortunately that's the most popular version of cricket there is. Wes has 7 50s there. We can't just ignore them. He scored 70 in Rawalpindi in only his 3rd match but people want act like he is a bum. This is not a question about talent. If only you knew how highly even South African coaches rate him.

This is about poor form, work ethic and getting too comfortable. Things that can be fixed. A lot of it has to do with our development structures as well we are sending half baked kids to open whilst our senior players hide in the middle order. There is a lot that can change.

Judging by the standards here Kaia should have stopped playing at 25.

[jaybro]

Yeah, words make a difference. Saying they "will" be the backbone and then saying, "they could" reach similar heights are two different things.

I think we all agree that they have the talent, but are not happy with the way they have progressed and that promise, which has not fully been fulfilled, is frustrating.

They are indeed two different things and two statements I believe are true.

The little 3 will be the backbone of the team for a long time, just like the Big 4 have been before them.

I also believe they could reach similar heights as their predecessors, although I’m not sure enough to be bullish about it.

They could play for 15 years in the national team and average between 25-30, that would in my opinion reflect being the backbone of the team, but not reaching similar heights.

So the two points are linked, but not exclusively dependant on each other.