3rd T20I | Zimbabwe vs India | July 10, 2024

[Googly]

The example Googly giving of Miller and Klaasen should open for RSA is unrelatable. Why will they open when RSA already have QDK as an opener and the likes of Markram ahead of them?

Same goes for players like Maxwell, SKY, Stoinis, Phillips...

Anyways my point here was not about Raza opening or not... It was about opening slot is actually the best position to bat in present day.

In ODIs may be as SZ said in Zimbabwe batting first, may be opening is tough but across the world if you see opening position is the way to go in both T20s and ODIs.

The argument was that the best batsman should face the most deliveries. In the SA team that's Miller and Klaasen.
It's either true or it isn't.
If all these top players could carry their bat more often than not then I'm in full agreement, but it happens so rarely that the argument doesn't really hold water.
The fielding restriction is an interesting one. Do you need the best batsman to take advantage of that or does he need to be in when it's tougher to score when there are boundary riders.
The only time it looks like a bad decision is when batters are going OK, but they're running out of overs and Miller is waiting in the wings. I don't know why we don't see more retirements. It's within the rules, is it not? It happens in the bigger teams but we have never ever had that luxury. Raza is usually in earlier than the 10th and it usually works out for us. The fact is he also makes mistakes and goes out. When he's not in top form he is really prone to some stupid shots. He hits up a lot and hopes to clear the boundary when it would often be safer to hit the gap with a flat shot. Our boundaries square are big at HSC and you have to smoke it out the middle to clear.

As far as 50 over cricket goes its absolutely tougher to open than to come in at 4 or 5. The ball does a lot for the first ten overs in many parts of the world, especially here and England. Not many teams have the luxury of a Roy or a Warner to pinch hit.

[secretzimbo]

Everyone is assuming Knackers is guaranteed success at international level. That remains to be seen. He didn't do that well in UK and when he hangs around here facing easier opposition maybe the system will create yet another mediocre player from a potentially good one?

I agree entirely that he is going to be average.

[Pat_Bee]

If he even gets a game

[sam_ahm]

The example Googly giving of Miller and Klaasen should open for RSA is unrelatable. Why will they open when RSA already have QDK as an opener and the likes of Markram ahead of them?

Same goes for players like Maxwell, SKY, Stoinis, Phillips...

Anyways my point here was not about Raza opening or not... It was about opening slot is actually the best position to bat in present day.

In ODIs may be as SZ said in Zimbabwe batting first, may be opening is tough but across the world if you see opening position is the way to go in both T20s and ODIs.

The argument was that the best batsman should face the most deliveries. In the SA team that's Miller and Klaasen.
It's either true or it isn't.
If all these top players could carry their bat more often than not then I'm in full agreement, but it happens so rarely that the argument doesn't really hold water.
The fielding restriction is an interesting one. Do you need the best batsman to take advantage of that or does he need to be in when it's tougher to score when there are boundary riders.
The only time it looks like a bad decision is when batters are going OK, but they're running out of overs and Miller is waiting in the wings. I don't know why we don't see more retirements. It's within the rules, is it not? It happens in the bigger teams but we have never ever had that luxury. Raza is usually in earlier than the 10th and it usually works out for us. The fact is he also makes mistakes and goes out. When he's not in top form he is really prone to some stupid shots. He hits up a lot and hopes to clear the boundary when it would often be safer to hit the gap with a flat shot. Our boundaries square are big at HSC and you have to smoke it out the middle to clear.

As far as 50 over cricket goes its absolutely tougher to open than to come in at 4 or 5. The ball does a lot for the first ten overs in many parts of the world, especially here and England. Not many teams have the luxury of a Roy or a Warner to pinch hit.

No, I still don't agree. Rohit, Kohli, Buttler, Babar Azam, Rizwan, Mendis (arguably), Head Warner, De Kock are all top batters of their side who open, most of them, if not all, are the best T20 batters in their side at present.

I not saying that Raza should open in T20s for Zimbabwe, purely because Zimbabwe do not have anyone else to fall back on if he gets out early... However, Zimbabwe needs good openers who can give them solid starts and that is not as difficult as the likes of Marumani, Kaia, Gumbie, Ervine, Madhevere have made it look.

In ODIs maximum centuries are from the openers in last 20 years... It is definitely the easiest spot to bat on without a doubt. In England we've seen roads in LOIs over the last 7-8 years... 400 has got breached many times. Probably the only country where bowlers have still done well is Australia, thanks to sportive wickets and huge grounds.

With due respect, surely if you are thinking that opening is tough, you are still in the 90s.

[Pat_Bee]

With due respect, surely if you are thinking that opening is tough, you are still in the 90s.

I wouldn’t fancy batting first 9am at Salisbury Sports Club; can make even the most docile bowler look like Jimmy Anderson

[secretzimbo]

However, Zimbabwe needs good openers who can give them solid starts

Nobody disagrees but do you have a magic solution?

Most of our best players are picked in most of our squads. Barring 1 or 2 random selections sometimes, our squads are mostly the best we have. We don't have dozens of amazing international standard openers queueing up for selection! We can try some different options or make 1 or 2 changes but ultimately there wouldn't be massively different results overall.

'India, South Africa, etc, have better players than Zimbabwe' isn't a particularly revolutionary point you are making?

[sam_ahm]

However, Zimbabwe needs good openers who can give them solid starts

Nobody disagrees but do you have a magic solution?

Most of our best players are picked in most of our squads. Barring 1 or 2 random selections sometimes, our squads are mostly the best we have. We don't have dozens of amazing international standard openers queueing up for selection! We can try some different options or make 1 or 2 changes but ultimately there wouldn't be massively different results overall.

'India, South Africa, etc, have better players than Zimbabwe' isn't a particularly revolutionary point you are making?

All I'm saying is that opening in LOIs isn't a difficult task, in fact it is the easiest going by the numbers of last, say, 15 years. The mindset that we need to see off the opening spell in LOIs is outdated. That's all I mean.

For Zimbabwe, I would suggest try and open with Bennett and may be for now, Welch. Wes can still play at No. 3.

[Googly]

Well there's two Welch's, both of whom are not on any radar.
They just need a good season and they'll be difficult to ignore, but they'll still try
Personally I think Madhevere will never be the same player. Chucked in too soon by people who just don't understand the game and the pressures involved. If only you could pay them to stay away and let people who know what they're doing to manage selections. Why not acknowledge after years that you don't have a clue? Give them some money to build a rocket or something that they've got a better chance of getting off the ground.
A few good innings will help Wes, but he doesn't look close to pulling that off, he's very fragile now.
It's a huge problem amongst our players. A few guys with enough ability but the musical chairs to continually revert to players that they desperately want to do well shatters everyone's confidence.

[ZIMDOGGY]

I don't know why all of you think opening the batting in LOIs is a difficult thing??? It is the best place to bat... These days the ball doesn't do much, the pitches are usually flat and you get full quota of overs to bat. The hard ball also travels far. You see most of the big run getters across the world in LOIs are openers.

It's a different thing altogether that Zimbabwe hasn't been able to produce a single good opening batsman in recent times. That's a shame.

Batting at 6 is far more difficult. You have to go right from the word go, no time to settle and the softer ball is a bit difficult to hit.

People here stuck in the older thinking.

In T20’s it is more magnified.

At the risk of sounding as adamant as Andrea and the tapeball, best place to bat *in a T20* is opener.
This is pretty obvious to most T20 teams I see around the world and it should be more in Zimbabwe considering the range of our batting talent from 1-6 is more vast than most countries.

In a T20, you get 20 overs obviously, so you are already coming in at the equivalent of the 30 over mark in a LOI.

An opener, if he lasts until over 20, gets a statistical maximum of 60 balls to face. Possibly as many as 75, but would be almost unheard of to face more.
To give ourselves the optimum statistical chance to win, you need the optimal amount of time for your best batsman to be out in the middle. If they last the distance or get close to it, we probably win. We can set the stage for the rest to come in with less pressure despite having a better chance of failing early since they need to get their eye in quickly.
The opener, your best or most damaging, has the added luxury of getting their eye in, and mis hitting with probable chance of success in the 30 ball power play at the front.

The concept of a ‘late order finisher’ is not really needed in T20s as you have to basically be close to finisher mode from the beginning.

And when Raza, who I put forward is our best T20 bat, comes in at 4 in the 4th over, all he has really done is rob himself of the chance to get his eye in during the power play and yield maximum total return for the team.

Strange to me only Sam_ahm and Pat Bee seem to be seeing this.

So have I managed to convince those here in the older thinking mindset yet?

Since I said this, two days later;
Indias openers went the whole 20 overs. Which people said ‘never happens’
Our best bat came in at the 10th over mark, after our openers only managed 7 an over. Exactly what I warned about.

Imagine Raza came in with 30 extra balls and power plays. We could have got 217. He only got out when he was swinging wildly because he had too.

[Googly]

Still don't agree
Raza always plays like that.
But let's hope they try something left field tomorrow.
Don't vehemently disagree, just mildly