[Match Thread] Zimbabwe v NewZealand (3rd ODI)

[Jemisi]

I agree with you on the spinner Hhm. I think it should be Price and pick Waller as the extra batsmen/part time spinner - say 6-9overs an innings - for this match seeing as Cremer is out of action.

On everything else...

[brmtaylor.com admin]

The embarassment is even greater when I see the likes of Pak & NZ hand debuts to their young bowlers&batsmen who take to international cricket like a duck to water - claiming MOM awards along the way, while our 'youngsters' simply look out of their depth. I prefer to see them return as the refined article in 2-3 years, instead of stumble their way through horrendous stats before they look capable at this level. It does them no good to continue to intersperse two good performances with months of poorness. For the good of our future, that hard road should be travelled by those whom I constantly put forward.

Vitori, Waller, Mawoyo? Maybe not young in age, but definitely international experience. They have not looked out of their depth

[FlowerPower]

Craig ervine has played in a couple of tests - countless ODIs as has played in a world cup in front of 40,000 screaming curries.

He's more experienced than Ewing and duffin and is mire up to date than matsi.

I too, think Ewing deserves another shot somewhere however.

Factually that isn't true unfortunately. I counted the "countless" Ervine ODIs exactly 23, with 21 innings compared to Duffin's believe it or not 23 with a marginal, but MORE non-the-less 23 innings, but Ewing's has less (understandably with the best of his years spent on "sabbatical"...but he has 50 FC matches compared to Ervine's 33...Testwise Ervine and Duffin have exactly the same number...2, one LESS than Ewing.

Not sure what you mean "mire up to date" if its recent playing history, again this is factually not correct, if we are to compare oranges with oranges (i.e. where they have both played, Logan cup), Matsi is ahead, 207 from 6 innings HS 144 at ave 34.5, compared to Ervine's more modest, but consistant 99 from 3 innings at 33, HS of 59. In the 50Pro, Matsi is tops 216 from 3 innings with a 50 and a 100 (HS 110*), compared to Ervine's 80 from 2 innings with no 100 or 50, HS 47.

What forumers need to get is potentially as shown from debut up to WC, Ervine is a classy player and his career far from finished, but currently he is not where he ought to be, he is a far better player than what we saw against Bangladesh, and the limited test outing against Pakistan. He should be allowed to work back to his high levels at FC. In the meantime let form players such as Matsi, Waller, Mutizwa hold fort (and if they prove themselves...so be it), but this "because he is a lefty"..."he is classy"..."he is better than X and Y...because I said so"... simply doesn't hold water...

I am at pains to let all know I rate the lad, and think he is quality and by being off, it doesnt mean he won't be back, but lets be honest and realistic, fair as well as factual in our debates.

The embarassment is even greater when I see the likes of Pak & NZ hand debuts to their young bowlers&batsmen who take to international cricket like a duck to water - claiming MOM awards along the way, while our 'youngsters' simply look out of their depth. I prefer to see them return as the refined article in 2-3 years, instead of stumble their way through horrendous stats before they look capable at this level. It does them no good to continue to intersperse two good performances with months of poorness. For the good of our future, that hard road should be travelled by those whom I constantly put forward.

Vitori, Waller, Mawoyo? Maybe not young in age, but definitely international experience. They have not looked out of their depth

I'm normally pro you BRMT, but will have to differ with you here:

Vitori:

v Bangladesh was exceptional (4/66, 1/56 in the Test, and 5/30, 5/20,1/45), then took a pasting vs the Pakistanis (0/103,0/15 in the test and 0/43, 1/62 in the ODIs...total of ONE wicket for the entire series ), now that is hardly NOT out of depth...Don't think he is as useless as hhm says, but he still needs to mature. Now this is against Pakistan, what more when AB and Hashim roll into town, Cook and Trott, and a fired KP (fortunately they don't want to play us!)..Watto and Hussey?

Waller:
(disclaimer: I am a fan, hence bias may creep in)

3 50s from 20, ave of 24 (and 99* helped somewhat) is hardly world class, but if I may make an excuse, unlike others the 20 have been intermittent, and largely lower down at 6, and more often than not as a repair man. But yes these figures (as potentially good as he is) do not paint a picture of NOT being out of depth.

Mawoyo:

Again like Waller's 99*, his 146* does romanticise his performances somewhat, but of the lot in the short test arena I'd say he has been fairly consistent, and I would be harsh to say he has been out of depth.

...let the young guy grow and learn his trade, away from the confidence sapping firing line, safely in FC (I think this is what hhm tries to argue with little diplomacy, which unfortunately tends to cloud his argument...

[foreignfield]

Anyway, as I've said countless times, I won't be the one eating my words on this one gents. In the next few months I will note how often you guys rebuke these 'promising novices' and follow expectedly as the selectors drop them one after another. I know you won't disappoint me! Poor performances from these fellows will continue to be the case, and the team will ultimately have a more mature look about it as those responsible are forced to come to their senses.

Really looking forward towards all those double hundreds by Duffin and Ewing, not to forget Rainsford's and Panyangara's 5-fors ...

[FlowerPower]

Anyway, as I've said countless times, I won't be the one eating my words on this one gents. In the next few months I will note how often you guys rebuke these 'promising novices' and follow expectedly as the selectors drop them one after another. I know you won't disappoint me! Poor performances from these fellows will continue to be the case, and the team will ultimately have a more mature look about it as those responsible are forced to come to their senses.

Really looking forward towards all those double hundreds by Duffin and Ewing, not to forget Rainsford's and Panyangara's 5-fors ...

I could be wrong but I dont think hhm is saying the old heads will outperform the youngsters but rather "hold fort" whilst the youngsters grow into mature international players under less confidence sapping premature exposure. The youngsters are free to play ODIs and T20s and 4 day tour matches and A tours..

Plus: gradual intro of our future stars under less pressure.

[brmtaylor.com admin]

FlowerPower, I guess it depends on an individual's interpretation of a player being out of their depth.
Vitori has played 3 or 4 very good matches, Waller has had 2 or 3 very good knocks, Mawoyo has played 1 outstanding innings with a few solid knocks. They haven't played that much international cricket, so for them to have played so well and in some cases produced match winning performances this early in their international career - in my opinion this absolutely shows that they are not out of their depth at international level.

Contrast these guys to say Shingi Masakadza, who has played about 10 games and has been carted around the park in all but 1. That is a very clear-cut example of a guy who is not ready for international cricket yet (or wasn't when he last played).

I could be wrong but I dont think hhm is saying the old heads will outperform the youngsters but rather "hold fort" whilst the youngsters grow into mature international players under less confidence sapping premature exposure. The youngsters are free to play ODIs and T20s and 4 day tour matches and A tours..

Plus: gradual intro of our future stars under less pressure.

I just saw this message as I was clicking Submit. It's a nice idea in theory but it is a very conservative approach and won't win matches. I don't think Zimbabwe would have beat Bangladesh if it wasn't for Jarvis and Vitori. Guys like Rainsford and Panyangara don't provide the variation that Jarvis and Vitori do. Add Mpofu and you'd end up with three right-arm medium pacers. It's not going to trouble many attacks.

If Jarvis, Vitori, etc are going to be future international class players then they shouldn't need to be shielded. If they are mentally strong enough then they will take the inevitable beltings in their stride and learn from it and improve from it. The truth is they are going to learn the most by playing the best players, and that can only happen in international cricket.

[foreignfield]

I could be wrong but I dont think hhm is saying the old heads will outperform the youngsters but rather "hold fort" whilst the youngsters grow into mature international players under less confidence sapping premature exposure. The youngsters are free to play ODIs and T20s and 4 day tour matches and A tours..

Plus: gradual intro of our future stars under less pressure.

"Hold fort" until we've lost test status again? (Sorry, sarcasm has taken over)

As I said before: You pick your best players.

Ideally you have a group of experienced players and gradually introduce new faces. And that's exactly what's happening now: Taylor, Taibu, Price, Mpofu, Hamilton, Elton, Sibanda, Cremer when fit and Pro for ODIs, these are our core players around which we've introduced Waller, Vitori, Jarvis, Tino, or Ervine earlier.

What hhm wants boils down to replacing relatively young, relatively inexperienced players who have put in some outstanding performances at international level with relatively old, equally inexeperienced players (when it comes to international cricket) who have not set the international cricketing world alight in the past.

Just to make it clear: I've got no problems with Duffin or Ewing, but they have to earn their places just like anybody else. I'd like to see them in the A side. In my eyes Duffin is as limited as Tino is, and I guess they would probably end up with a pretty similar, albeit moderate test average. The question whether Ewing is better than out current batch of middel order bats seems to take on religious proportions, with hhm at least ... but I'm not a believer!

As an aside: Of course I'd like to have someone like Streak to guide our young fast bowlers on the field. (At least he's doing it from the sidelines). But do you really think Rainsford or Panyangara are capable of that???

[Jemisi]

Duffin has already held the fort - in 2006 when he was captain. He now needs to score a few centuries in a season to be given a place in the side *bobs head back into trench to avoid Hhm missile*

[Lostart]

Thankfully, Lostart acknowledges just how devalued the Zim cricekt jersey has become, and the need for our promising youngsters to do their growing elsewhere besides the global stage. I just wonder how much in agreement he is with my advocacy for the addition of a few these overweight/past-it mature players I 'rant' about at every opportunity.

I do agree to an extent, I think that there have been far to many guys given a shot at the national team in the last few years that maybe should have been kept waiting a year or two in FC cricket to prove they are consistent performers. Maturity is a major plus in a cricketer, as we saw from Waller in this last game. He has shown that he is learning and getting better, he had a few games when he was younger and didn't cover himself in glory. Then he went away and worked on his game and has become a better player for it. Players like Lamb and Ewing have played overseas and in pressure postions this makes them valuable. Look at our side, we could use a Lamb or Ewing in the middle order to stabilize it a bit. However there is a need to develop young players and maybe there is also a feeling in ZC that it's best to give as many players a go so that they keep playing after having a taste. We have had more than our fair share of quality players leave and either quit or try qualify for another country. This may be a way of getting a hold on a wider group of players and an attempt to keep them in the first class structure.

I am a big fan of the A teams, we should really try to get more of these games going either invite other countries teams or try go on tour, i mean look at the Australia A side, Warner, Hughes, Khawaja, Fuegeson, Finch, Paine, Starc, JJ Krejza, LR Butterworth, NJ Maddinson, MR Marsh, PM Siddle, TA Copeland, BW Hilfenhaus, MA Beer. the vast majority of these guys had played for Aus before or are playing for them now. What better experience could you want for your young players than to face real pace like Siddle and starc and your bowlers bowling to the future batting line up of one of the best sides in the world. The South African side was also a good one, with some very experienced players and some youngsters.

[FlowerPower]

NOTE: Argument based on Test squad and not limited overs.

"Hold fort" until we've lost test status again? (Sorry, sarcasm has taken over)

foreignfield, if you have followed the whole debate you will see that this is the very sarcasim I offered hhm initially, but after consideration I think he may be onto something, I remain skeptical but open to his line of thought...

As I said before: You pick your best players.

Ideally you have a group of experienced players and gradually introduce new faces. And that's exactly what's happening now: Taylor, Taibu, Price, Mpofu, Hamilton, Elton, Sibanda, Cremer when fit and Pro for ODIs, these are our core players around which we've introduced Waller, Vitori, Jarvis, Tino, or Ervine earlier.

With all due respect the "experience" you mention is in the batting, and aside Duffin and Ewing, hhm has not been asking for an overhaul of the batting (yes maybe overcritical of Mawoyo, to which to his credit he did say he was proved wrong somewhat), now according to your bowling Vitori, Jarvis, is the new component we have injected, to an existing attack of Mpofu (a 25 year old learning his trade), I think as we saw in the Pakistan series the youngsters brutally suffered, now we hope/hoped NZ wouldn't scar them further, I'm sure you will agree sport is a confidence as well as talent affected endevour. This is where I tend to agree with hhm. If we had Rainsford and Panyangara, even Mupariwa, we then would have a group of slightly wiser (not necessarily better) heads to cope, whilst Vitori and Jarvis are exposed to these touring sides in the context of an A team, and Streak works on them as a future attack, without putting them in a preasure cooker and risking losing all confidence. I have no issue gradually introducing them one at a time, but certainly not wholesale as we have done. I suppose the counter argument is that we didn't have a pace to use as "old heads"...so the question would be, are we willing to sacrifice Jarvis and Vitori, whilst Chinouya, Querel (I hope he comits) and Chatara are safetly prepared as the next (unrushed) attack?

What hhm wants boils down to replacing relatively young, relatively inexperienced players who have put in some outstanding performances at international level with relatively old, equally inexeperienced players (when it comes to international cricket) who have not set the international cricketing world alight in the past.

That's where you miss the point, I don't think shielding these guys is a sign of their lack of class (hhm, tone that line a bit), but we are saying the youngsters are fast falling to that level of the previous guys anyway, (slightly worse if you look at Pakistan and NZ series), so why risk them and their confidence, let's revert to the old heads and maintain the level we had (albeit low), whilst we let the youngsters who have a chance grow naturally...case in point Australia although in transition still have Watto, Bolinger, Jhonson (yes he's 30 this year) and Lee (not saying Panyangara and Raisford equate), but the youngsters are shielded somewhat, your Copelands and co are introduced gradually.

Just to make it clear: I've got no problems with Duffin or Ewing, but they have to earn their places just like anybody else. I'd like to see them in the A side. In my eyes Duffin is as limited as Tino is, and I guess they would probably end up with a pretty similar, albeit moderate test average. The question whether Ewing is better than out current batch of middel order bats seems to take on religious proportions, with hhm at least ... but I'm not a believer!

I concurr, by that line of argument, why were Rainsford, and Mupariwa before them dumped just like that? Did Vitori and Jarvis "earn" their way in? I'd say they were identified and fast tracked...I hate that expression...the results of all Zim's ills if you ask me...I digress...Vitori and Jarvis should have had a couple of A tours...a few seasons of FC, yes if they are exceptional move them up, but they didn't go through the process, like you advocate for Duffin and Ewing.

As an aside: Of course I'd like to have someone like Streak to guide our young fast bowlers on the field. (At least he's doing it from the sidelines). But do you really think Rainsford or Panyangara are capable of that???

I just saw this message as I was clicking Submit. It's a nice idea in theory but it is a very conservative approach and won't win matches. I don't think Zimbabwe would have beat Bangladesh if it wasn't for Jarvis and Vitori. Guys like Rainsford and Panyangara don't provide the variation that Jarvis and Vitori do. Add Mpofu and you'd end up with three right-arm medium pacers. It's not going to trouble many attacks.

Not really but, it is better for a 25 year olds sharing notes, than 22 year old Njabulo and 21 year old Jarvis, and 20 year old Vitori trying to figure out a way past McCullum...again I stress I do not say the old guys are more talented, but they are equal in achievement, so let them carry on whilst we polish off our diamonds...and yes there is the issue of what the world will say but they are going to talk whether its Jarvis getting pasted or Mupariwa, so why not take the conservative route?

FlowerPower, I guess it depends on an individual's interpretation of a player being out of their depth.
Vitori has played 3 or 4 very good matches, Waller has had 2 or 3 very good knocks, Mawoyo has played 1 outstanding innings with a few solid knocks. They haven't played that much international cricket, so for them to have played so well and in some cases produced match winning performances this early in their international career - in my opinion this absolutely shows that they are not out of their depth at international level.

Point taken

Contrast these guys to say Shingi Masakadza, who has played about 10 games and has been carted around the park in all but 1. That is a very clear-cut example of a guy who is not ready for international cricket yet (or wasn't when he last played).

My very argument that doesn't rub many the right way about Craig.

If Jarvis, Vitori, etc are going to be future international class players then they shouldn't need to be shielded. If they are mentally strong enough then they will take the inevitable beltings in their stride and learn from it and improve from it. The truth is they are going to learn the most by playing the best players, and that can only happen in international cricket.

And I think that is still very possible in the A teams with tour matches, and Zim A tours as well, less hectic and less pressured, and no RISK of ruined figures and confidence, and if they are the future surely we shouldn't feel rushed, why should we? I prefer a deliberate approach as opposed to this panic machanic approach and the potential RISK we incur. Note I say potential risk, it may very well work but I prefer a more considered approach, we are not as desperate as we once were (2004)...

As a parting shot, based on hhm's "sheild 'em principle", which I seem to be becoming a disciple of (not convinced yet, but heating up to it!)! Feel free to move around (promote/demote):

Zim XI

1. Sibanda 2.Taylor 3. Masakadza 4. Matsikenyeri 5.Ewing 6.edited Taibu(wkt) 7. Chigs 8.Price/Creamer/Lamb 9.Rainsford 10. Hondo (he is still playing)/Panyangara 11. Mpofu

Zim A

1. Mawoyo 2.Duffin 3.Sakanda 4.Waller 5.Mutizwa (wkt) 6.Ervine 7.Meth 8.Utseya(capt)/Mushangwe 9.Masakadza/Chinouya 10.Jarvis/Qurel 11. Vitori/Chatara