How refreshing! Objectivity at last! I was feeling somewhat lost in this jungle. If I could add to your analysis of the forum, we also have extremities, those who think we have a bunch of world beaters (forget the lack of experience) and those who vehemently oppose this group, i.e. our boys are rubbish and wouldn't survive club cricket, let alone Test.PieChucker wrote:Comments on this thread alternate between a)complaining about the pace of the bowlers according to the speed gun and b) - moaning about the utter incompetency of the bowlers themselves.
a) Speed. In an age where any club side can get a bowling machine to whang down ball at 140 km's speed only becomes an issue when bowlers start hitting the 150km mark. Line and length are everything - Glen McGrath bowled in the mid 130's for most of his career and he did okay.
b) I suspect Heath Streak may have a better idea of what these bowlers are capable of. From what I saw of Jarvis, I think he's the best fast bowling prospect we've had since Streak. But, it takes a good few years at this level to learn how to remove top batsmen. Vittori is possibly even more talented, he can move the ball both ways and gets a bit of bounce and fizz. He's got a lot to learn and there's no better place to learn than bowling against the best. Both of these guys have the ability to take wickets, what we desperately need. Shingi is a wicket taker too and he's learning that you have to sweat for every wicket, give away nothing and mentally outwit a batter.
There is no point in replacing these guys with the usually run of the mill pie chuckers who are consistent but utterly mediocre.
It is therefore refreshing to read a balanced opinion such as yours. I too believe there is value in line and length and like you in previous threads have used McGrath as a classic example amongst other great medium pacers. Speed isnt everything, actually it isnt much without control and strategy. I almost feel the boys have been instructed to bowl well within themselves and try and get control, Jarvis seems to have gotten this spot on, and Shingi in his first spell did, but Vitori has struggled.
I, like you, believe these boys have the talent. I like the total disregard for the fact that this is the first tour for these boys (I can almost see hhmand Zimdoggy almost itching to counter this..."get people who have toured, Test touring is not a place to learn", etc, etc). Heath arguably our all time greatest bowler, started his Test abroad, in Pakistan, with figures of 0/77 at 2.65rpo and 0/40 at 4rpo. No one would have expected a ten wicket haul, but he turned out ok. I am not saying the lads are out of this world, but they aren't exactly poor either.
Indeed what I say is, as said before in answer to hhm's reaction to the English re-engagement thread, I don't think we can gain anything from playing Eng, Ind, Aus, SA or even SL and Pak. There is no value as we would lose badly way before 3 days. We should instead play more against NZ, Bang, and WI and also A sides from the former group, as we mature as a team (this team has at least 5/6 years in it as a unit, and the bowling can have even an extra 3-5 years).
I have a lot of belief in this team, but we need not heap huge and unrealistic expectations on the lads. A draw, by hook or crook against NZ away would be a fantastic result (actually a shock in some quarters) a loss would not be a catastrophe. We competed against a very good Pakistan side which went on to outplay SL, and is troubling the number one side in the world, we pushed NZ to the last few overs of day five, and indeed with more experience and self belief we could have won in Bulawayo...and despite being of little value we thrashed Bangaldesh, a team that was using us as an argument to belonging to the Test nations elite club not so long ago...
Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint, I chose to see a half full jar, you can see it as half empty. As Heath has been quoted "That team from ten years ago was a lot more experienced than this current team [but] probably not as talented"...I suppose some of us here know much more and have more experience to judge these kids...no offence guys, but I being less accomplished than the great Streak will tend to cautiously believe Streak over the pessimists.
