ZIM Test lineup going forward

[Jemisi]

If we are going with 3 bowlers we need some batting aggression.

Hami
Mire
Ervine
Taylor
Williams
Raza
Musakanda
Chakabva
Cremer
Jarvis
Chatara

[Kriterion_BD]

Taylor as WK is not a good idea because as the best or equal best batsman in the team he needs to bat in the top 4. WK never bat higher than 6 on a routine basis and that is a waste. Bangladesh has a similar problem with Mushfiq (but we are starting to get enough batsman to where its less of an issue). And Taylor will likely be keeping for very long periods of time unless ZIM start putting real bowling friendly wickets out.

Far too much was done to gt Taylor back. If Chakabva fails Taylor will have to keep and bat at 6 if he must! His average is 30 odd not 40 or 50 odd.

Taylor averages 45 since ZIM's return in 2011. Yes the bulk of that has been scored against Bangladesh, but still.

[Conant]

Jarvis has dominated County cricket that qualifies the argument he is the first seamer in Zimbabwe picked.

I don't know at what stage Jarvis was ever ahead of Chatara (or Vitori), except that being two years older, he established established himself when Chatara was still a junior?

I'm sorry this is all just incorrect

KJ, Vitori & Chatara all played around the same time, they all played Test matches together at some point and all 3 even played an ODI in the same side.

KJ was clearly the first seamer picked back then and I dare say he'll be the first picked again now he is back.

Like you say, AROUND, not precisely. Jarvis had a head start, not necessarily because he was better but because he had been playing for longer. Anyway...

Conant, I am actually offended that I could be mistaken for espousing white privilege. Just ask Flakemen, with whom I had a healthy discussion on the white nationalist apologist Ben Shapiro. My signature is of Malcolm X, just in case that helps my cause.

This isn't a discussion on politics and I try to keep to facts as much as I possibly can. The fact of the matter is that any and all of the world class ZIM cricketers to date have been white. Batsmen: Flower 1, Murray, Houghton, Taylor, Ervine. The best black batters IMO would be Taibu followed by Masakadza. Musakanda has the potential to be as good as Tylor and Ervine. Quick bowlers is Streak, with Jarvis and maybe Mumba or Ngrava having the potential. Spinners is Price, Cremer from the guys I know. Myabe strang.

Its just common sense facts. White kids start playing the game earlier and feel connected to the tradition. That is probably not true for most of the black players, although Im sure its always changing.

So isn't that privilege? You do say yourself that white kids play the game earlier. Isn't that because they also have more resources? I'm glad we agree.

[Conant]

We literally have to wait 3 weeks to see who the better bowler is guys... I think it all depends on the format and whether Chatara is even fit enough to play 2 tests. Although I do think both Chatara and Vitori would crack a county second division team if given the opportunity. Jarvis did struggle in his first year too. don't know why there is an argument as I'm sure all 3 would be picked in our strongest side anyway.

True.

Its just that those suspects that are most vocal would hide away or deny, deny, deny when they are proven wrong, which they will be. Be like you said, we only need to wait three weeks, these guys will be playing in the same match and we can judge equally.

Conant did you even bother watching the Sr Lanka test ?? Regis missed 3 chances on the final day which pretty much cost Zimbabwe any chance of winning. Regis is the best keeper of a very average bunch so yes if Moor improved his keeping he would replace Regis ( common sense I would have thought )

Also Regis is a good batsman ( I actually defended him when someone said he was rubbish ) but he hasn't set the world on fire lately and hasn't passed fifty in any format if international cricket for over 3 years now. Moor has done pretty well in his early Test career with the bat.

You're right about Moor being down in the pecking order for a spot purely on batting so I wouldn't be surprised if he does concentrate on his keeping as it would be his best chance of returning.

I really don't know how that didn't make sense to you

I watched every ball of that Test, jaybro, I was trading on it.

Missing two or three chances does not make one a bad keeper, the same way that missing two slip catches doesn't turn one into a bad slip fielder. It happens.

What makes one a bad keeper is missing chances consistently, the way Moor, who I have nothing against, did over not in one, not in two but in five ODI matches in Sri Lanka.

In contrast, prior to that last day, Chakabava had snuffled three or four VERY good catches which Peter Moor wouldn't have had a a chance in hell of catching. I don't think Taylor wld have caught those catches either but I don't wanna start another war.

In any case statistics aside, I trust my eye to tell me that Moor just doesn't have the coordination nor the reflexes needed for a good wicket keeper. Similarly I trust my eye to tell me that Musakanda will make a good batsmen, despite the fact that he doesn't have numbers to back it up. Ask Kriterion. He will tell you the same.

Again, I have nothing against Moor.

[pariah]

n contrast, prior to that last day, Chakabava had snuffled three or four VERY good catches which Peter Moor wouldn't have had a a chance in hell of catching. I don't think Taylor wld have caught those catches either but I don't wanna start another war.

In any case statistics aside, I trust my eye to tell me that Moor just doesn't have the coordination nor the reflexes needed for a good wicket keeper.

Again, I have nothing against Moor.

In a forum where Raza, Malcolm and Williams are trusted to bowl, it's not inconceivable for Moor and Brendan to be perceived to be keepers of the standard that would put Taibu to shame. And yes those comparisons have been drawn quite consciously right here.

[eugene]

If BT can keep, here is my lineup. Not happy with the openers, but I am really unsure who to put at the top.

1. Sikandar Raza
2. Brian Chari
3. Hamilton Masakadza
4. Craig Ervine
5. Brendan Taylor (w)
6. Sean Williams
7. Malcolm Waller
8. Graeme Cremer (c)
9. Shingirai Masakadza
10. Kyle Jarvis
11. Tendai Chatara

Really like this. If Taylor keeps across formats, It really brings flexibility to the XI.

If we can get someone like Byrom, he can replace Chari, while a Mire can look to unseat Waller. If we need another front line spinner, say, Wellington, he can come in place of Shingi / Waller.

With Musakanda and Moor on the bench, Masakadza and Williams would be pushed hard to keep performing.

I guess the only other opening options are to open with Mire or Chakabva (if he is the keeper), or Masakadza - although he has little history of success as a test opener.

[Kriterion_BD]

So isn't that privilege? You do say yourself that white kids play the game earlier. Isn't that because they also have more resources? I'm glad we agree.

It probably qualifies as privilege in the broadest sense like how even language has a white bias eg having a "black mark" on your record. But in reality language doesnt actually impact lives that much.

I am under the impression that white kids play cricket because their dads and grandfathers played cricket. Boxing Day you watch Test matches because thats how its always been. The few black kids who play licked the game up much later. Thats my understanding at least. It takes time to build cricket culture. Pakistan didnt become a pace obsessed nation overnight, nor did India develop a love of great batting overnight.

15 or 20 years from now you might see the kids of Hamilton or Chigs playing cricket as they grew up watching daddy. Does that apply to any of the current black cricketers?

And the real question is does that constitute privilege? I dont think so because its not systemic and kind of just a natural phenomenon. Like black people are genetically less susceptible to osteoporosis than whites because blacks have higher average bone density. Is that an example of black privilege? No because its natural and not man made.

If blacks had come to Zimbabwe in the last century or two from England they would have a tradition of cricket also. But I dont think thats an example of privilege.

I define privilege as something one group or the system they create dominate intentionally and willfully imposes something on another.

For example black person doesnt comply with police orders, black guy gets killed. White guy kills 9 black churchgoers, gets police protection on way to court.

Muslim guy kills someone he's part of a worldwide network. White guy kills someone and he was depressed.

Black president says God bless America and he is a traitor. White president says good people marched alongside Nazis and he's a model president.

[Kriterion_BD]

White Zimbabweans are forcing blacks to be disinterested or less interested in cricket intentionally. Its happening naturak due to culture and history.

Similar to Irish who have rejected cricket as something English on their own.

[jaybro]

We literally have to wait 3 weeks to see who the better bowler is guys... I think it all depends on the format and whether Chatara is even fit enough to play 2 tests. Although I do think both Chatara and Vitori would crack a county second division team if given the opportunity. Jarvis did struggle in his first year too. don't know why there is an argument as I'm sure all 3 would be picked in our strongest side anyway.

True.

Its just that those suspects that are most vocal would hide away or deny, deny, deny when they are proven wrong, which they will be. Be like you said, we only need to wait three weeks, these guys will be playing in the same match and we can judge equally.

Conant did you even bother watching the Sr Lanka test ?? Regis missed 3 chances on the final day which pretty much cost Zimbabwe any chance of winning. Regis is the best keeper of a very average bunch so yes if Moor improved his keeping he would replace Regis ( common sense I would have thought )

Also Regis is a good batsman ( I actually defended him when someone said he was rubbish ) but he hasn't set the world on fire lately and hasn't passed fifty in any format if international cricket for over 3 years now. Moor has done pretty well in his early Test career with the bat.

You're right about Moor being down in the pecking order for a spot purely on batting so I wouldn't be surprised if he does concentrate on his keeping as it would be his best chance of returning.

I really don't know how that didn't make sense to you

I watched every ball of that Test, jaybro, I was trading on it.

Missing two or three chances does not make one a bad keeper, the same way that missing two slip catches doesn't turn one into a bad slip fielder. It happens.

What makes one a bad keeper is missing chances consistently, the way Moor, who I have nothing against, did over not in one, not in two but in five ODI matches in Sri Lanka.

In contrast, prior to that last day, Chakabava had snuffled three or four VERY good catches which Peter Moor wouldn't have had a a chance in hell of catching. I don't think Taylor wld have caught those catches either but I don't wanna start another war.

In any case statistics aside, I trust my eye to tell me that Moor just doesn't have the coordination nor the reflexes needed for a good wicket keeper. Similarly I trust my eye to tell me that Musakanda will make a good batsmen, despite the fact that he doesn't have numbers to back it up. Ask Kriterion. He will tell you the same.

Again, I have nothing against Moor.

It sounds like you do have something against Moor.

Look Conant a spade is a spade and Regis is not that good of a keeper and he misses plenty of chances. You seem to have a short memory but if you need a refresher go through the old match threads and you'll see the forum anguish at the miss chances from Regis, just like when Richmond or Moor keep.

Do you remember the Mahmudallah run out in Bangladesh ?? Regis knocked over the stumps before he even got the ball and ruined a simple run out.

It's just fact Zimbabwe doesn't have any keeper of a high standard, IMO Richmond and Regis are both pretty good keeping against pace but both poor against spin. Whilst Moor is well behind both.

But my original claim that has sent you on a tangent that If Moor improved his keeping he would replace Regis is fair considering he was the Test keeper for the previous 3 Tests.

Regis hardly cemented his position in the side after the Sri Lanka test after getting bowled by two straight deliveries by Herath for barely any runs and missing those crucial chances on the last day.

For me despite Regis not passing 50 since 2014 for Zimbabwe and his mistakes on the final day he is still the Test Keeper in my side because he's the best keeper at the moment and he is a good batsman.

Still don't understand how you got so upset

[jaybro]

As for who's the first seamer picked we can let the selectors answer this one and as many of said who cares who is first picked it will just be great to see KJ & Larry bowling together like they did against the West Indies