Come on Kriterion, you can do better than that.Kriterion_BD wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:11 amOK. My question is, when have Hami, Elton, Chatara, Panyangara, or Utseya done well and delivered a win against a top side? Lets assume a top side is the traditional 8 powers, plus Bangladesh in ODIs post 2015, Bangladesh in Tests post 2016, and Afghanistan in T20s post 2017.
I think they have won 1 Test vs PAK, 1 vs BD, 1 T20 vs Afghanistan, 1 ODI vs Australia, and a couple of T20s vs India's A team (still a very strong outfit, so we can include that as top opposition). So they have maybe 5-10 wins out of aprox 200-300 matches. Thats hardly noteworthy. Taylor, Jarvis, and Williams have done more from less.
Plus, it's more than just wins, it's the quality of the opposition bowlers as well. For example Elton won the ODI for ZIM against Pakistan.That was a top shelf attack. Same with the T20 you acknowledged - Chahal and Bumrah have never been 2nd rate at any point. To this day I still fume about that ODI loss to India. Elton did everything - arguably one of the best ever knocks by a Zimbo in ODIs - but Williams went awol again as usual in such situations, and Raza failed to do what was necessary.
Since 2011, in T20s Zimbabwe have only beaten India - and twice. First it was Chibhabha then Elton. As we all know Hami signed off with ZIM's only win against that Afghanistan T20 side you refer to. In Tests you know the story, Hami plus that trio of Panyangara, Chatara and Vitori got the better of Pakistan in that solitary win. For ODIs there's a longer list of evidence, and some of these were attacks with the very best world class bowlers:
World Class attacks*
Pakistan 2013* - Hami
Australia 2014* - Elton
Pakistan 2015* - Elton (massive effort from Chibhabha)
West Indies 2016 - Chisoro
Weak and abject attacks
New Zealand 2015 - Craig (junk attack, everyone got stuck in)
New Zealand 2011 - Malcolm (junk attack, everyone got stuck in)
Sri Lanka 2017 - Mire (weak attack)
Sri Lanka 2017 - Craig (weak attack)
Sri Lanka 2017 - Raza (weak attack and it was the batsmen Hami, Mire & Musakanda really
, same with Craig's game)Sri Lanka 2018 - Raza (even weaker attack, but massive from Hami too)
In that un-noteworthy list, do you see the names of Taylor, Williams and Jarvis anywhere? (In fact 2004-2010 is much the same, with Chibhabha, Elton, Taylor, Matsi, Vusi, Taibu, Utseya and Hami in the mix but mostly for obvious reasons - quotas, with Price & Cremer often being then's mistaken version of the real match-winners).
In some ways your Bangladesh ODI attack is stronger than the attacks ZIM faced in some of these match wins above, especially considering Malinga(and SL) generally hit his lowest career form over that year/period too. Those NZ ones are scarcely stronger than Ireland or Netherlands today if at all. Still, and I know it annoys you, but I struggle to rate Bangladesh because you guys don't really have bowlers to be honest. Your away ODI form is horrific because of that considering the settled batting talent. Even at home, it's your batsmen who have had to do the heavy lifting for you - with spinners then taking advantage of helpful pitches. So your ODI side can't really be said to be strong. Post 2015 BD would finish at the very bottom of our FC List A league in SA, with even your match-winning bastmen demolished more often than not(you just found us in a bad space in the CWC
). Mustafizur can't and won't do it alone, he's not at the level of Malinga who can single-handedly make a difference. As much as I don't believe BD can win a Test Series against ZIM in ZIM, I don't believe BD and AFG can beat ZIM in ZIM in and ODI Series for those very reasons - bowling and batting respectively.! You dominated ZIM in ODIs simply because you were too cowardly to lose top 8 CWC ranking points by touring ZIM, while West Indies and Sri Lanka were not. Which is worse BD's ODI bowling attack or AFG's ODI batting? You can't take one but ignore the other, because they are equally poor in my view.What I find strange is that some time ago you personally did a thread, and acknowledged your own shock at Taylor's absence as a match-winner for pretty much all of ZIM's winning high points against quality opposition. So I don't really know why you would ignore your own evidence. When has Kyle Jarvis won a match for ZIM against quality in any format? Never!
But at the end of the day, of the currently under-40 group, ZIM has only really produced 3 players whom one can say can really stand toe to toe with some of the very best Hami(T20s), Taibu(Tests & ODIs), Elton(across all formats) and Panyangara(Tests). And when one really narrows that group down, the big-hitting 140kph Elton who still had a healthy back, is the only near world class player to come out of Zimbabwe since a number of top keeper-bats with crazy numbers have emerged, which sort of dampens Taibu's shine. However, the likes of Hardik Pandya, Neesham, Sam Curran have got nothing on that fit Elton, yet some are regarding world class. That Elton would have been a Proteas regular. Yes, he's better than Ontong, Albie, Wiese, Farhaan, Pretorius, Morris, Phehlukwayo and a host of others who played for other countries.
zimbo if we went on the top contributions in losses then how many of the farmers/rebels did that? Same with Taibu, Hami and Taylor. How many 2-21 bowling performances do Panyangara, Utseya and Price have? How many destructive 30s-40s-50s-60s knocks does Elton have in losses against world class attacks? Who doesn't cherish young Taylor's T20 world cup knock, I can still remember how shook Taylor was at what he'd just done(although the ZIM odds had jumped massively during Vusi's savage attack and Ponting sweating
). The problem is he hasn't really had much more after that to be honest, and it's because he turned his back on opening the batting when he was doing well at it in 2010 - just as I predicted. eugene called it a conspiracy and me setting Taylor up to fail. Fast-forward many years later, and you realise I was right, he should have carried on opening when he was getting better at it(Proteas would have won the CWC if AB carried on opening too). One bad game you say? As ZIM's premier and record-highest ever paid player, what is Taylor's ODI and T20 record in 2019? Doesn't look like XI form to me, and against who?
